Interview with Sam Kelly and David Bishop, developers of the UK’s first Genre-Fiction Creative Writing MA Degree
EPIC has been fortunate enough to get some detailed information about the UK’s first graduate degree in genre fiction.
David Bishop, the New Zealand-born former editor of 2000 AD and The Judge Dredd Megazine and Sam Kelly, a former literary agent from London with a penchant for postmodern theory, answer questions about their revolutionary approach to creative writing in higher education.
Tell us what prompted the development of this program. Has interest been well received?
Sam Kelly (SK): The initial development came from people within the School of Arts & Creative Industries here. Having decided that they wanted to start an MA in Creative Writing, they advertised for two lecturers to put together a programme and teach it. The steer towards including some form of genre writing was already there, because the University felt this would be a good idea – but when David and I arrived, we had pretty much a blank canvas in terms of how we interpreted that. What we decided to do was shape the programme around particular specialisms: crime fiction, science fiction and fantasy, graphic fiction, narrative for interactive media, commercial non-fiction and screenwriting. Then we added vocational training in a whole range of related disciplines: editing, cross-media adaptation, collaborative work, reviewing and feature writing, abridgement, working with pre-created characters…
Making a living as a writer means being as versatile as possible, so we want people to know plenty of different skills that can help them get work. Finally, we added a core strand of critical theory and experimental technique. This bit is really fun – it’s an adventure of ideas, designed to catapult students into thinking about their work from every possible angle. In terms of teaching, we decided to ditch the conventional workshop approach, and give professional one-to-one mentoring instead. We also decided to have no poetry at all, and to involve all our favourite writers as guest lecturers. The final mix is completely unique – and yes, the response has been amazing! The programme is a new invention, so we really had no idea how it would be received – but the enthusiasm out there for what we’re offering is huge, and the quality of applications so far has been incredibly high.
Why Edinburgh Napier University?
SK: Edinburgh Napier is the perfect home for a programme like this. It has a strong ethos of vocational relevance, equality of access, cross-disciplinary energy – it’s an outward-looking place that genuinely embraces all kinds of new thinking. The University hosts Screen and Media Academy Scotland, and is already the top Scottish university in this field, so we couldn’t be in better company! Our rooms are in a Victorian Gothic mental hospital on a hill, looking over the whole city and out to sea. It’s fabulous. I guest-lectured here once, and knew immediately that if I ever had the chance, I’d come here to work.
Why do you think that genre fiction has not been taught in other programs in the UK before?
SK: There are isolated instances of genre fiction on a couple of other programmes, but they are little add-ons rather than a driving force. And we’re definitely the only Masters programme with options in writing for graphic novels and interactive entertainment. The reason, I think, is that a lot of Creative Writing teaching in the UK grew out of standard English Literature programmes, and is still rooted in very traditional ideas, so they simply don’t have the flexibility to reinvent in this way. Also there’s a perception that if you teach genre then what you’re teaching is formula: a dumbed-down, tricks-of-the-trade kind of course. That is absolutely the opposite of what we’re doing. We’re aiming at genuine quality and real originality – at opening up possibilities, not pigeonholing people. Genre writing, historically, has been the engine of new ideas and new narrative techniques that are later absorbed into mainstream culture – and the collision of theoretical concepts, new media, genre influence and literary talent has produced all of the most groundbreaking debut fiction of the last decade or so, here and in the States. Put like that, it seems odd that everyone isn’t doing this course! But I don’t think it’s only in the UK that these sniffy, patronising assumptions about genre persist. I don’t see a lot of Masters programmes with modules in graphic fiction and computer gaming on offer in other countries, either.
Is there limited number of placements within the program?
David Bishop (DB): Yes, we’re looking to have 24 students the first year – a mixture of full timers completing the MA in one year, and part-timers with us for two years. That means in our second year total numbers will creep up, but the two cohorts of part-timers will always be taking different modules.
Are there any pre-qualifications?
DB: A first degree in any discipline is desirable, but if applicants don’t have that, we’ll take relevant professional experience taken into account. So far we’ve had journalists, published non-fiction authors, screenwriters, stand-up comedians and playwrights all applying for the course, along with a broad range of other people. For anyone who doesn’t use English as their native language, we need them to meet the standard of 7 in IELTS, or the equivalent in TOEFL or similar.
SK: Just to state the totally obvious, the main pre-qualification is the ability to write! People have to bring the talent, the desire, the intellectual curiosity, the creative energy, the drive and commitment with them. We can’t teach those things. It’s odd how sometimes people don’t realize that. We can tell a certain amount about someone from the basic application form, but the next stage in selection is that we ask for a 3,000 word sample of work – that’s the most important thing for us. Then we need to talk to each applicant – in person or on the phone – to work out where they’re really at, and make sure they’re likely to benefit from what we’re offering.
One difference you point out is the one-on-one meeting sessions. What will they involve and how frequent will they be?
SK: We are totally evangelical about the benefits of one-to-one mentoring. It’s the ultimate in professional self-development for writers at an early stage in their career, and for experienced writers who are looking to change direction and break into a new market. David and I both have experience of the Scottish Book Trust’s excellent Mentoring Scheme, and this is the model we’re using. Students will have one mentor (either me or David) for the whole of their time on the programme, and will have a minimum of 10 hours of face-to-face time in a year. That’s more than double the average tutorial time offered on other programmes – and it’s not a tutorial. It’s not about how to pass assignments, but about getting you to where you want to be as a writer. Mentoring enables you to formulate your own goals, and then gives you all the challenge, support, and editorial feedback you need to help you achieve those goals, in a way which is structured and professional. It can be a tough process, and it demands commitment on both sides – but it’s the most powerful tool there is for developing individual creative work to the highest possible standard.
Will there be group sessions too?
SK: Everything else happens in a group – in a combination of lectures, in-class writing, collaborative projects and discussions. What we don’t require students to do is critique each others’ work as part of the teaching and learning process. This ritual of formal peer critique dominates Creative Writing in universities, and while it’s generally useful for poetry, drama and short-form work, we’re not at all convinced of its value in a course like ours. This doesn’t mean that the group dynamic is unimportant. We expect the group to be mutually supportive, and to learn from each other, and I’m sure that informal workshop-style groups will happen if students want to have them: there are physical and online spaces already set up that students can use in whatever way they like.
Are there any plans for distance learning?
DB: We’re looking to introduce distance learning in a couple of years, once we’ve taken our first cohorts of full-timers and part-timers through the course. Offering individual modules [such as writing for graphic novels] is another possibility for the future, but our priority is to ensure the first two years’ worth of students get the best possible experience. We don’t want to risk diverting our focus until the MA is fully established.
Are there any age limits for applicants?
DB: No, we want to be inclusive as possible. Having said that, most people don’t acquire a first degree before turning 21 and there’s not many prospective applicants under that age who’ve acquired enough relevant professional experience to be offered a place.
SK: It’s also important to say that there isn’t an upper age limit either. A lot of great writers find themselves later in life. As long as the qualities we’re looking for are there, we have no preconceptions about age.
What are some of the genres you expect? Are there any you won’t accept?
DB: For the genre fiction option, our focus areas are crime, fantasy and science fiction. That means we won’t be delving deeply into areas like romance or westerns. But crime, fantasy and science fiction are broad genres that offer incredible scope to tell stories and cross over into mainstream literary fiction. We’re also offering an option in writing for other storytelling media such as graphic novels, screenwriting and interactive entertainment. There the students select their own genres. If somebody wants to write a romantic comedy screenplay, we’ll embrace that choice.
SK: I think porn is off the menu. I think we decided that already.
Is student housing available?
DB: Yes, but places go early and are dependent on various factors. More information can be found on the Edinburgh Napier University website, www.napier.ac.uk
What about international students? What would you suggest a potential international student to do?
DB: One in five students at Edinburgh Napier University is from outside the UK, and we’re already receiving some very exciting applications from around the world. People are responding by our innovative mixture of popular genres, commercial media, and one-to-one mentoring – there’s simply no other MA course like this anywhere else in the world. Potential international students should visit the website - http://www.courses.napier.ac.uk/W54718.htm?Nav=0 for full-timers and http://www.courses.napier.ac.uk/W54719.htm for part-timers to find out more.
A published author in Scotland has said: “Creative writing courses are for amateurs.” What is your response to this statement? Is this indicative to the attitude in the UK?
DB: I can’t speak for other courses, but our creative writing MA is for people who aspire to be professional writers. I mentioned some of our applicants earlier – they’re won international awards, had books and short stories professionally published, and many make a good living from writing or working with words in their professions. They’re willing to sacrifice time from those careers to challenge themselves as writers. Does pursuing their aspirations and dreams suddenly make them into amateurs? Or does it demonstrate courage and ambition? You be the judge.
SK: Actually, I have quite a lot of sympathy with the view expressed by your mystery Scottish writer. I worked as a literary agent in London for many years, and used to visit Creative Writing programmes regularly to give lectures on getting published and what it’s like out there in the big world, and I’d read the students’ work, and give them some feedback. And what I noticed (with increasing despair) is that a lot of courses – particularly those with a great deal of “workshopping” involved – do tend to attract a certain type of recreational writer. I’ve nothing against this, generally.
There are people who want to express themselves, and who go on Creative Writing courses because it’s a nice thing to do, and they have the money and leisure to invest in their hobby in this way. It’s not a state of mind we have time for here, though – we’re definitely not encouraging that kind of writer to sign up for this particular course. They wouldn’t like it, anyhow.
How do you see this program as being a benefit to publishers? Edinburgh Napier University prides itself in preparing their students for life outside of the university in their vocation. More often than not, publishers have to deal with authors and their rose-tinted glasses. The reality of the business comes as a nasty shock. Will the program address this? How will it leave students prepared to handle their future writing career?
SK: All the publishers we know have been hugely enthusiastic about our approach to the realities of the industry, and the practical, pragmatic aspects of the course. David and I are both industry professionals, and we really want our students to be clued up and realistic, and to have the tools they need to make a decent career for themselves. A lot of Creative Writing programmes market themselves heavily on the back of the tiny proportion of graduates who get a contract with a mainstream literary publisher, and this is fair enough. But it does foster certain expectations, which in many cases are totally unrealistic.
We too will have graduates who get published – I’m absolutely sure of it – but that’s not the whole story. We won’t be encouraging students to think that if they do well in class, Faber & Faber will automatically come knocking on their door or to believe they’re failed if that doesn’t happen.
Talented students who are serious about making a future as writers – particularly in the current climate – are going to have to be a lot more canny and versatile than that. So, we’re achieving this partly by teaching those skills that can help them make a living. Secondly, we’re requiring all students to do market research, and to make a realistic plan for themselves as part of the work they do on the course. Every student should leave here knowing where they want to be next, what they still need to do in order to get there, and how to feed themselves in the meantime. Thirdly, we’ll be introducing students to a wide range of publishers, agents, script editors, audio producers, and people from all the other industries that employ writers.
In Scotland, graphic fiction and computer gaming are growth areas, the BBC needs a constant stream of fresh talent, and print journalism isn’t quite dead. So, we hope to put realistic opportunities in front of people. We’ll be doing practical work on how to write synopses and proposals, and how to pitch an idea, to make sure that students can make the most of these opportunities.
What else would you like to say about the program?
SK: I would like to say that inventing this programme is definitely the most fun I’ve ever been paid for. I’m massively ambitious for what it can achieve. And I can’t wait to start teaching it!
Who should people interested in enrolling contact?
SK: First of all, have a look at the course details on the website – if you’re keen, you can click through from there to an online application form straight away. If you want to discuss any aspect of the programme, I’m always happy to hear from people. You can email me direct at s.kelly@napier.ac.uk
Edinburgh Napier University is the best modern university in Scotland* and number one in Scotland for graduate employability** (*Guardian University Guide 2009) (**HESA 2008)
You have fired my imagination! Ironically, I took my degree in Teaching English at Edinboro State College, which is now Edinboro University of Pennsylvania. I’ve had twelve novels published in the last 25 years, and my husband agrues that another degree would probably not enhance my chances of publication, but, well, I just feel such an excitement about studying in the “real” Edinburgh, or thereabouts.
Jane Bierce